Reservation

Bruno brought to my notice that there is something fishy about the IIT seats being left unfilled.

This seems like a big scandal and completely insane !!

The people at the IIT admission committee don’t seem to know how to implement reservation or they don’t want to !

This is how reservation works:

The eligibility marks in Maths, Physics, Chemistry are 5, 0 and 3. Those who got more than eligibility marks can all apply to get admitted.

Say, we have totally 100 seats. and 20 for Open competition, 40 for OBC, 40 For SC-ST (just some random percents)

Top 20 rankers (including OBC, SC-ST not just FC) will get admitted into the 20 seats for Open competetion. The aggregate score of the 20th person will be the cut-off for Open competition. You should note that the cut-off is an incidental score set by the 20th person.

Then the next 40 seats are filled by the next 40 Top ranking OBC. even if the 40th person got just 5, 0, 3 the minimum eligible mark, he deserves to get the seat filled. He doesn’t need to have a top score.

…and the procedure continues for SC-ST.

No one fixes the cut-off first. It gets automatically fixed when the seats are filled. It can only be known after all seats are filled and serves as an indication for next year candidates how much they may need to score to get admitted in their quota.

fixing the cut-off mark first and driving away prospective students from each quota and proposing to merge these seats to common pool and get some more FC getting added is plain cheating.

For anyone who follows TNPCEE procedure, we expect that the cut-off marks for Open competetion, OBC, SC-ST should be really distinct and significantly lesser than Open competetion.

This is how reservation should work.

72 thoughts on “Reservation”

  1. I dont think there is any FC quota. It should read as OC.

    I have a question what about people say in FC who get less than the top most level cut off.

    what about people in SC, FC, OBC or any category who just merely passed but couldnt make it to number of seats.

    The current system is way too much favouring BCs rather than any other category. And for SCs and STs no way they are ever going to improve with this system.

    Anyone who wants to have education if not given opportunity in any form because of limited seats, fees or capability is going to be an injustice in the name of social justice.

    -msathia

  2. sathia, i’ve corrected the FC / OC confusion.

    the cons u mentioned r inevitable when v have limited seats. i believe, in the long term increasing the seats with consistent quality everywhere is the solution.

    can u explain how BCs profit more? I don’t understand it. Thanks.

  3. I know we are digressing from topic here. But still is it not a “bad justification ” because something can be “inevitatble” in a system. Then that system may not be “totally wrong” but it is “not correct”. Coming to the second point you know the how Indian system currently is, in which we are never going to get the correct picture (even RTI is made mockery but still a welcome change). So I really dont have a statistical analysis to show case that BCs are more favoured. More from random assessment I can definitely say SC and STs are less favoured compared to BCs(including OBCs) and FCs. My argument is simply is this. Say, X students out of total Y population gets the benefit because of reservation/money/social power for every community. So
    X(FC)/Y(Tot FC) > X(BC)/Y(Tot BC) > X(SC)/Y(Tot SC) > X(ST)/Y(Tot ST) Adding another dimension is the inclusivity of women across all categories.
    Read this too http://keetru.com/dalithmurasu/apr08/fund.php

  4. //Say, X students out of total Y population gets the benefit because of reservation/money/social power for every community//

    If so

    SC = 1
    ST = 1
    FC > 1 (more seats than population percentage)
    BC < 1 (less seats than population percentage)

    So the most favoured is FC
    Least favoured in BC

    This is as per your logic

    Can you enlighten us more 🙂 🙂 🙂

  5. //even RTI is made mockery but still a welcome change).//

    But only because of RTI, IITs were forced to release the marks

    and

    Suddenly we see candidates from reserved category getting ranks in the Open Merit List

    How come BC Candidates became so intelligent in one year 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

    When the mark details were not released – NO Reserved Candidates in Open List

    When Marks have to be released – More Reserved Candidates in Open List

    Does this tell you about IIT

  6. sathia, i agree there are pros and cons and definitely reservation can be implemented in a better way. but even with the current implementation, compared to the cons, the pros are better, i feel. so instead of having no reservation, i am for having it in some way. This article explains how anyone who implements reservation would be expected 2 to it.

    Having a faulty method of implementation intentionally and making it an excuse for rolling back reservation is unacceptable. Because, the current reservation scheme was a result of decades of efforts

  7. Ravi,
    Nowhere I am suggesting that Reservation to be scrapped.
    I would say this is the best system possible. I totally agree, compare this how US(the only country I have exposure to at personal level hence US), is incentivising Afro Americans and Native Indians by monetary means and still they have not yet achieved what they what. My point is how to improvise the existing system definitely not by still dropping people fall off from the opportunities. May be I live it Utopia but still I want it !!

    ///Having a faulty method of implementation ///
    My point is exactly this. The whole reservation is not uniformaly implemented not only with this IIT example at every level it has faults which needs correction.One another area is reservation for promotions in govt jobs.

  8. As far as TN Government is Concerned, Once you have entered the service, then there is no reservation in promotion.

    The 100 point roster solves the issue very beautifically

    The rotation roster followed by few institutes are done with the intention of minimising the reservation and in the turn few FC candidates are also affected

  9. Does this tell you about IIT?
    >> I have no doubts about that. Yes, I agree. This might be happening and because of RTI we got this information.

    ———————
    If so

    SC = 1
    ST = 1
    FC > 1 (more seats than population percentage)
    BC > How come SC=1 and ST=1?

    In “more seats than population percentage”
    FC>BC>SC>ST This is my logic.

  10. //How come SC=1 and ST=1?//

    Population of SC is 15 % (in India) They get 15 % Reservation

    Reservation Percentage / Population Percentage = 1

    Population of ST is 7.5 % (in India) They get 7.5 % Reservation

    Reservation Percentage / Population Percentage = 1

    Population of BC in India > 50 %. But they get only 27 % reservation

    So 27/50 <1

    Is this clear

  11. //Until recently there was reservation in promotions. Not sure on recent developments as there were lots of tribunal and suprement court judgements on this.//

    Even TODAY there are reservations in promotions. But the method follows is what makes that meaningful or not

    In the 100 point roster, the candidate is given the advantage at the time of recruitment itself. So there won’t be any caste criteria at the promotion stage

    Where as in Rotation Roster the seats are reserved

    For example if 100 professors have to be appointed in Central Government Run Institutes in 2008, then 15 will be reserved for SC , 7.5 for ST and 27 for OBC. This leads to a lot of confusion

    But in Tamil Nadu, there is NO SUCH Reservation. On the other hands, the 100 point roster (formulated at the time of appointment) makes sure that all the communities are equally distributed

  12. Ravi,
    You microblog is becoming macroblog. Thanks for the platform.

    Bruno,
    Couple of points.
    1.//But in Tamil Nadu, there is NO SUCH Reservation. On the other hands, the 100 point roster (formulated at the time of appointment) makes sure that all the communities are equally distributed//
    a) From which year this was formulated and this is the procedure. Any detail on how this roster works will help as I really have no idea on this system.
    b) What about central govt. Is it not an injustice (to any category) if there are (and will be) just few seats are available for promotions and we know the duration of promotion chances in govt? Dont you think it is injustice?

    2.//Population of BC in India > 50 %. But they get only 27 % reservation

    So 27/50 <1 //

    Please refer my second comment in this chain.< X(BC)/Y(Tot BC) > X(SC)/Y(Tot SC) > X(ST)/Y(Tot ST>>

    My basis was not on % of reservation alone. Since I was subjectively putting the x>y>z>a formula now you are coming out with numbers I will put the question differently.

    a) Do you mean to say that out of the say 60% of BCs ONLY 27% actually get seats and they need more % of seats reserved. If that is the situation all FCs, SCs and STs will get seats everywhere. SCs and STs are more than that % in different states.
    Then by this time atleast one generation of SC /STs would have educated.

    With all paratmeters (not only on reservation) BCs and FCs are enjoying more seats compared to other categories. FC also be because of the background they had and the money power most have. See also an analysis of the same here on the medical admissions that came in here

    There are left out people in all these categories take Muslims in BC. Poor people in FC. Women in all categories. The worst deal is for STs. I am ignoring all these people for which I dont have an answer but would definitely see there is a better system to follow inclusivity and remove imbalance rather than exclusivity and punishing.
    Read also this in sync with what I am saying and post your thoughts on that too.

  13. //a) From which year this was formulated and this is the procedure. Any detail on how this roster works will help as I really have no idea on this system.//
    Ok. I will explain. But before that please read
    http://payanangal.blogspot.com/2008/03/blog-post_8124.html
    and
    http://payanangal.blogspot.com/2008/03/blog-post_22.html
    I will try to complete the post on Rotation Roster soon

    //b) What about central govt. Is it not an injustice (to any category) if there are (and will be) just few seats are available for promotions and we know the duration of promotion chances in govt? Dont you think it is injustice?//

    Sure. But the system was intentionally done (like what they do in IIT) to make sure that Candidates from Reserved Category get least chances. 🙁 🙁 But since it is a two edged sword, it has backfired 🙂 🙂

  14. //With all paratmeters (not only on reservation) BCs and FCs are enjoying more seats compared to other categories. //

    You have not given proof for this. But I have denied this statement with proof

  15. //There are left out people in all these categories take Muslims in BC.//
    That is why DMK has brought quota for them also 🙂 🙂 🙂

    Look how Tamil Nadu can answer all your questions

    // Poor people in FC. //
    As I have explained in http://payanangal.blogspot.com/2008/06/500.html poor people need money. Please see the above link where this has been addressed

    //Women in all categories. //
    Tamil Nadu has 33% reservation for Women in JOBS.

    In Medical and engineering colleges, even without reservation, women are more than 50 % in medical colleges and about 50 % in engineering

    //The worst deal is for STs.//

    Why do you say so. They have 7.5 % reservation in Central Government and 1 % reservation in state government

  16. Bruno,
    After reading all your posts with stats it still justifies my point. SC/STs are most affected category because of existing system. Even though it is just a sample I am just citing whatever you have posted.
    முற்பட்ட வகுப்பினர் – எப்.சி – 11 %
    பிற்படுத்தப்பட்டவர்கள் – பி.சி – 58.6 %
    கிருத்தவர்கள் – பி.சி.சி – 5.8 %
    முஸ்லிம்கள் – பி.சி.எம் – 4 %
    மிகவும் பிற்படுத்தப்பட்டவர்கள் – எம்.பி.சி – 14 %
    அட்டவனை வகுப்பினர் – எஸ்.சி – 6.4 %
    பழங்குடியினர் – எஸ்.டி – 0.2 %

    If you add up the statistics for MBC +BC inlcuding muslims and christians gets around 81%.

    2007 வருட தமிழக மருத்துவ பட்டமேற்படிப்பு மதிப்பெண் பட்டியலில் முதல் 100 இடங்களில்
    முற்படுத்தப்பட்ட வகுப்பினர் 9 பேரும்
    பிற்படுத்தப்பட்ட வகுப்பினர் 74 பேரும்
    மிகவும் பிற்படுத்தப்பட்ட வகுப்பினர் 15 பேரும்
    அட்டவனை வகுப்பினர் 3 பேரும் உள்ளனர்

    அதே போல் 2005 ஆண்டு எம்.பி.பி.எஸ் நுழைவு மதிப்பெண் பட்டியலில் முதல் 430 இடங்களில்

    முற்படுத்தப்பட்ட வகுப்பினர் 38 பேரும்
    பிற்படுத்தப்பட்ட வகுப்பினர் 321 பேரும்
    மிகவும் பிற்படுத்தப்பட்ட வகுப்பினர் 57 பேரும்
    அட்டவனை வகுப்பினர் 14 பேரும் உள்ளனர்
    MBC+BC = 87%.

    Is this justified?

  17. sathia, is it correct to see the % distribution in just first 100 or 430 seats? This is just a rank list not a seat allocation list. The seat for the SC / ST is assured even if they fall outside this merit rank right? You need to see the % of seats in MBBS compared to % of SC/ST population. Guess in Tamilnadu you have around 1500 seats. Bruno, can you tell what % of these seats go to SC / ST? Is it fair compared to the % population of them?

    bruno posted this stats to prove the point that even without reservation BCs are topping the ranks and hence the allegation that reservation might bring down quality of the students admitted is wrong.

    bruno, sathia – i am not moderating comments but somehow wordpress keeps placing some of your comments in moderation queue. will try to approve the comments asap it comes

  18. //After reading all your posts with stats it still justifies my point.//

    Oops… Sathiya, You have NOT read my posts 🙁 🙁

    The list given in the GENERAL MERIT LIST which is only 31 %.

    //SC/STs are most affected category because of existing system. Even though it is just a sample I am just citing whatever you have posted.//

    I am afraid that you have not understood even the basics regarding the reservation

    So SCs actually get 6.4 % out of 31 % + their 18 %

    That is MORE than the 18 % of the seats, where as their population is 18 %

    Now can you understand the stupidity (sorry for this harsh word, but even after me explaining so long, you are still sticking with your wrong stand) of your following statement “SC/STs are most affected category because of existing system”

    Are you ready to accept your mistake and change your notion about reservations or do you still want more proof

  19. //Bruno, can you tell what % of these seats go to SC / ST? Is it fair compared to the % population of them?//

    Yes.

    For SC. It is MORE than 18 % compared to their population of 18 %
    For ST. It is more than 1 % compared to their population of 1 %

    Sathia, please try to understand what is given. If you see with Jaundiced Eyes, every thing will appear yellow only

  20. //அதே போல் 2005 ஆண்டு எம்.பி.பி.எஸ் நுழைவு மதிப்பெண் பட்டியலில் முதல் 430 இடங்களில்

    முற்படுத்தப்பட்ட வகுப்பினர் 38 பேரும்
    பிற்படுத்தப்பட்ட வகுப்பினர் 321 பேரும்
    மிகவும் பிற்படுத்தப்பட்ட வகுப்பினர் 57 பேரும்
    அட்டவனை வகுப்பினர் 14 பேரும் உள்ளனர்
    MBC+BC = 87%.//
    Unfortunately you have made a BIG Mistake with maths (like what the champions of merit in IIT have done with cut offs). I still believe that your mistake is because you do not any the details about reservation, as you have not read any thing about reservation and seat matrix, but has been brainwashed by Media like Indian Express into believing their biased views But I will not give IIT champions of Merit this benefit of doubt. 🙂

    //Is this justified?//
    Is this justified to argue with false data, sathiya 🙂 🙂 🙂

  21. Ravi,
    Exactly, you hit the point. If this is miniscule data then it also proves that with this data you cannot prove that this is the best system and can be implemented all over India. etc., that Bruno is justifying in his posts.He has derived those justifications in % figures and I just pointed out my justification with that same numbers.
    See this. This is the situation in India.
    The reservation is so confusing in different ways and implemented differently everywhere(Bruno, immediately dont harp on this, you have talked about this. Good, I read your post). I asked a specific question since when the Roster system was introduced in TN govt jobs. What about impact before that? TN govt is implementing reservation to Muslims now. What about impact before? How it is analysed. There migh tbe flaws in this also. We dont have enough statistics actually to prove all the complexities. That is why I started this discussion with we have to consider all parameters before giving a justification to this system and also said I am digressing from the blog topic. Alas, Bruno has decided that I am stupid and dont know anything and also have a jaundiced eye. If someone has decided on something where is the space for discussions then.

  22. //If this is miniscule data then it also proves that with this data you cannot prove that this is the best system and can be implemented all over India. etc.,//

    Sathiya

    You have misunderstood Ravi

    The data given (by you) is list of General Turn. But I have explained very clearly. Please read the FULL posts before letting out your false claims that we cannot prove.

    We have proved very clearly the benefits of reservation. if you have any specific questions please ask

  23. //If this is miniscule data//

    Sathia, i am sorry. I don’t think this is miniscule data. TN is the place which has a long history of reservation policies and a I believe MBBS admission scenario can very well represent its effects. I request you to see the data fully not just the first few hundred ranks. When you see the total seats allotted, i don’t think SC/ST are affected.

    Bruno, you both are good friends of mine and I wish and request we discuss this cordially even if we differ / want to differ very much in views. If we disagree, let’s gently stop the conversation after we summarize our arguments. Thanks.

  24. //Exactly, you hit the point. If this is miniscule data then it also proves that with this data you cannot prove that this is the best system and can be implemented all over India. etc., that Bruno is justifying in his posts.//

    I have given a volume load of data to prove my claims

    What you did was to take a very small part of that and then try to distort

  25. //He has derived those justifications in % figures and I just pointed out my justification with that same numbers.//

    No.

    Numbers and Percentage are not the Only issue

    The data given is the performance in OPEN QUOTA
    But you have concluded it as the Total Seats

    That is the problem

  26. /See this. This is the situation in India.//
    That is BPL data. That is NOT The situation in WHOLE India. Are you able to understand the differences.

    You first gave Open List and argued as if it is the WHOLE List

    You now give BPL List and argue as if it is WHOLE India

    It is like showing a Splendour and telling that all two wheelers are like that only

  27. //The reservation is so confusing in different ways and implemented differently everywhere(Bruno, immediately dont harp on this, you have talked about this. Good, I read your post). //

    And and in many cases the confusions were made deliberately to reduce the benefits to the reserved category and give more (than justified) seats to general turn. Well documents examples for this are AIIMS, UPSC and now the latest exposure of IIT

  28. //I asked a specific question since when the Roster system was introduced in TN govt jobs. //
    I will check and give you the correct date. But what are you trying to prove or disprove with that.

    //What about impact before that?//
    You can check that yourself

    // TN govt is implementing reservation to Muslims now. What about impact before? How it is analysed. //

    Please read the Sachar Committee report. Everything is documented very clearly

    //There migh tbe flaws in this also.//
    Yes. The way this reservation was implemented in TNPG 2008 created a bit of confusion. It is because of the same reason 🙁 🙁 I have already told

  29. // We dont have enough statistics actually to prove all the complexities. //
    No. We HAVE statistics

    //That is why I started this discussion with we have to consider all parameters before giving a justification to this system //

    Yes.. Excellent. But it was who who took the OC Seats and gave a WRONG CONCLUSION as if it is the TOTAL Seats

    //and also said I am digressing from the blog topic.//
    OK

    // Alas, Bruno has decided that I am stupid and dont know anything and also have a jaundiced eye. //
    I have not decided. You read your writings once again and you can see for that with icteric or non icteric eyes

    //If someone has decided on something where is the space for discussions then.//

    We have decided that reservation is beneficial to the society based on solid evidence
    If you have evidence, please show

  30. //If we disagree, let’s gently stop the conversation after we summarize our arguments. //

    Reservation is
    Good for the Reserved Class
    Bad for the Unreserved Class

    This applied to all reservations, be it caste based, religion based, ex service man quota, women quota etc

    Is that clear

    I don’t think that there will be any differences over this

    BUT

    Inspite of the reservation being detrimental to the unreserved class, reservation is STILL NEEDED because one class cannot continue to go at the cost of other for ever

    In a bullock cart with two bulls, both need to be equally strong. If one bull is very strong and the other bull very weak, the cart can only move at the speed of the weak bull.

    When two bulls are equally healthy and if the farmer has 10 kgs of food, he will give each 5 kg

    When one bull is hale and healthy and the other is sick and the farmer has 10 kilos of food, how should he divide

    5 kg for healthy bull
    5 kg for sick bull

    or

    6 kg for sick bull
    4 kg for healthy bull.

    What will you do if you are the farmer in question

    The government is doing that only in the form of reservations.

  31. //Now can you understand the stupidity (sorry for this harsh word, but even after me explaining so long, you are still sticking with your wrong stand) of your following statement “SC/STs are most affected category because of existing system”//

    Sathiya, My comment was specific to the above FALSE line, which was earlier told by you.

    DO you still think that it is an intelligent statement

  32. Bruno, sathia

    the discussion is digressing and for my own understanding i would like to summarize as followed before we continue.

    * According to my blog post, it proves IIT didn’t implement reservation properly. The reservation scheme may be faulty or correct, but they have failed to implement whatever is expected by law. Hope we all agree and condemn it.

    Now we move on to discuss further points about reservation policy and how we implement it.

    We all agree we need reservation but Sathia differs in the % allotted for each section. Especially, he feels SC/ST are affected and they should be given more % of seats.

    Bruno took the TN medical admission scenario. He says SC/STs have their 18% quota matching their population % and in addition they get 6.4% seats more in the Open competition. So they could get more % seats than their % population.

    Sathia counters with the BPL % of SC/STs are huge so they ought to be given more seats.

    But Bruno is of the view of poverty and lack of education are two different things, so one cannot base reservation completely on that.

    Sathia, at this point I need clarification. Supposing, I agree the current scheme is faulty what would be an ideal % scheme that you would propose? Would you give an ideal % breakup and justify it based on stats, evidences? A detailed scheme would be useful.

  33. Bruno,

    I am not sure why you got the misconception and trying to prove again again the benefits of reservation + also the number that was cited is for GC category.
    I thought you will directly correlate the same for BC like you did with SC quota (refer your line:”So SCs actually get 6.4 % out of 31 % + their 18 %”)

    To clarify
    1. I am not denying the benefits of reservation. I Understand the rationale and SUPPORT IT.
    2. I do understand that numbers are for GC and NOT the overall quota( I did my schooling in govt/aided school and college all across TN, how can anyone escape without understanding)

    My only point is BC candidates are overtly favoured. I tried to prove that with the GC split for category.
    I will try to put it again.
    The 31% GC quota adds up like this=3.51(FC) + 25.54(BC)+1.98(SC)+(0.06)(ST)
    The rest 69% is reserved except for FCs.

    So the 100% adds up like this

    1. BC’s in GC Quota+ BC quota ( 82.4/100 X 31 %(GC) + 50**)= 75.54 % of seats are with BCs
    2. Sc’s in GC quota + SC quota( 6% out of 31%+ 18% ) = 19.98 are with SCs
    3. STs in GC quota + sT quota( 1% out of 31% + 1%) = 1.06% are with STs
    4. FCs in GC quota = 3.51% are with FCs

    Hope I am clear and you would still see that 75% are with BCs. I strongly believe that this is not justified because a population of 50% enjoying a 75% seat is not correct then it needs attention to see whether there is a need to reduce the reservation for them or needs a redistribuion of that extra % to SCs and STs. There is a flip side to this I really have doubt all these 75% are really BCs? Are they really Backward Classes?

    I dont have actual data to show this but No oNE would.
    1) I have seen a lot of people from same subsect getting coverted into BC categories. There are few castes ( I dont want to name for flaming here) for which one of them is BC and other is Fc.
    2) FC guys getting BC certificates by changing caste itself.
    3) BC guys getting MBC certificates.
    The first 2 items are very very prevalant and is a big time business. This infact affect real BC students who deserve a seat. So the only way is to taking the castes which are having an anamoly one by one out of the basket ( after justification obviously) and then redistributing to SC/ST or reducing overall reservation.

    **Quota in TN
    – 30 percent for backward classes -,
    – 20 percent for most backward classes – and denotified tribes -,
    – 18 percent for scheduled castes -, and
    – 1 percent for scheduled tribes -.

  34. Ravi,

    // According to my blog post, it proves IIT didn’t implement reservation properly. The reservation scheme may be faulty or correct, but they have failed to implement whatever is expected by law. Hope we all agree and condemn it. //

    Totally Agree and I condemn it as you and Bruno do.

    Sathia, at this point I need clarification. Supposing, I agree the current scheme is faulty.
    what would be an ideal % scheme that you would propose?

    // Ravi, There are 2 ways of doing this. One to scrap the entire system and introduce a new one. The second is to improve the existing system. Latter is more feasible option. But before doing that 1) cleanup on the caste certificates is seriously required. We have to follow state based reservation %s and implementation the one like what you detailed in the blog post or whatever is correct way and agreed upon everywhere. Implementation has to be mandated all across all institutions and government agencies. 2) Once in 5 or 10 years a check on whichever castes(not the categories) can get a significant % of seats everytime has to be moved out of BC list and make them compete in OC and redistribute the % to SC or ST if needed. Reduce the % of reservation every 10 years by 1% or 2%.

    Would you give an ideal % breakup and justify it based on stats, evidences? A detailed scheme would be useful.
    I am not an expert to give a detailed note on an ideal system but here is one which according to me looks more appropriate but all depends on how to implement this also.

    Thats all I have to add to this discussion.

  35. Sathia, now u have made a lot clearer 🙂

    To summarize your argument, BC+MBC get around 75% seats with their quota+GC seats. If BC+MBC’s have improved so much and have merit to compete in GC, why can’t they shed some of their reservation % and give it to SC, STs who seem to be suffering with a huge % of them suffering under BPL?

    Bruno will be the best person to answer 🙂 May be his answer will give me some insight. so will let my stand known after seeing that.

    I have a doubt: If 69% reserved according to population %, is the remaining 31% of population all FC?? Don’t think so. Can someone give split up of TN population by FC, BC, MBC, SC, ST?

  36. //My only point is BC candidates are overtly favoured.//

    Sathia. I guess are are trying to mislead others. Your points that I contended were

    And for SCs and STs no way they are ever going to improve with this system. made on Aug 5, 2008 at 1:14 am

    and
    SC/STs are most affected category because of existing system. (Aug 8, 2008 at 12:16 am)

    Why are you now changing that.

    Please check again. I was countering that only

    As you have clearly proved, SC are 19% of population in Tamil Nadu and they get 19 % of seats

    Are you clear with this.

    Do you accept your mistakes atleast now

  37. //Hope I am clear and you would still see that 75% are with BCs. I strongly believe that this is not justified because a population of 50% enjoying a 75% seat is not correct then it needs attention to see whether there is a need to reduce the reservation for them or needs a redistribuion of that extra % to SCs and STs. There is a flip side to this I really have doubt all these 75% are really BCs? Are they really Backward Classes?//

    Now. You are still committing a lot of mistake and trying to confuse others

    1. You have added BC+MBC and Call then Just BC

    2. The population of various castes in Tamil Nadu
    BC 2,87,93,980
    MBC/DC 1,30,24,065
    SC 1,18,57,504
    ST 6,51,321
    Forward Castes 80,78,809
    Total 6,24,05,679

    Now, this proves that your point of population of 50 % is Wrong

    Do you accept these two mistake

  38. BC 46.14%
    MBC/DC 20.86%
    SC 19.00%
    ST 1.04%
    Forward Castes 12.95%
    Total 100.00%

    Now

    SC population is 19 % and they get 19% of seats

    They are in now way affected

    MBC Population is 20 % and they get their 20 % of seats

    BC Population is 46 % (Please note that BC alone is 46 and BC + mBC is 66) and they are reserved only 30 %

    Their reservation is 16 % less than their population percentage

    Is this clear

    But them getting more seats is by their virtue of performance in the Geneneral Category and not by reservation

    Is this clear

  39. //1) cleanup on the caste certificates is seriously required. //

    Please note that there are enough safeguard in the system already and it is very easy to get a forged Community certificate, but very very difficult to use that

    Please see my links above

    //We have to follow state based reservation %s and implementation the one like what you detailed in the blog post or whatever is correct way and agreed upon everywhere.//

    That is why we have
    18 % reservation for SC in TN
    15 % reservation for ST in India

    1 % reservation for ST in TN
    7.5 % reservation for ST in India

    Is this clear

    So

    what you are trying to suggest are ALREADY done and they are working 🙂 🙂 🙂

  40. //”http://www.sabrang.com/cc/archive/2006/june06/report3.html”//

    Please note that this is not the IDEAL break up what Ravi has asked

    And something else

    The method given out by that aggarwal was first discussed by me in my blog and RxPG Online and he shamelessly lifted that from me in 2006, gave a name MIRAA and published it as his own.

    Please check my english blog 🙂 🙂 🙂

    Any how That is not what Ravi has asked

  41. //Sathia, now u have made a lot clearer :)//

    … with wrong data and wrong interpretation of data 🙂 🙂 🙂

    Hope the situation is actually clear with the correct data

    And

    Once again, i have to thank sathia for himself accepting that SCs do not suffer as they get 19 % of seats

  42. // To summarize your argument, BC+MBC have a 50% population percentage but get around 75% seats with their quota+GC seats. //

    NO. The population (BC + MBC ) is 66 % and they around 70 % of seats

    //If BC’s have improved so much and have merit to compete in GC, why can’t they shed some of their reservation % and give it to SC, STs who seem to be suffering with a huge % of them suffering under BPL?//
    They are getting their 19 % . So no need to shed this

    // Bruno will be the best person to answer 🙂 May be his answer will give me some insight. so will let my stand known after seeing that.//

    Hope this is clear

    // I have a doubt: If 69% reserved according to population %, is the remaining 31% of population all FC??//

    No. I think I have explained above

  43. From 1951 onwards, Tamil Nadu’s Backward Classes enjoyed 25 percent reservation.

    In 1969, the first Tamil Nadu State Backward Classes Commission, with A.N. Sattanathan as chairman, recommended a separate 16 percent reservation for the Most Backward Classes and 17 percent for the Backward Classes.

    In 1971, the DMK government hiked the BC quota from 25 to 31 percent and the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes quota to 18 percent.

    In 1980, the M.G. Ramachandran government increased the BC quota from 31 percent to 50 percent.

  44. On the direction of the Supreme Court in W.P. Nos. 4995–1997/1980 and 402/1981, the government constituted the Tamil Nadu Second Backward Classes Commission under the Chairmanship of Thiru J.A. Ambasankar, a former IAS officer. After considering the recommendations of this Commission orders were issued for the continuance of 68% reservation in the State.
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    After a detailed and careful consideration of the representations received from certain sections of Backward Classes stating that they were not adequately represented in Public Services and in educational institutions, the Government have issued orders in March 1989 to provide 20% reservation for Most Backward Classes and Denotified Communities from out of the 50% reservation them available for all Backward Classes leaving the remaining 30% for Backward Classes. Now, the reservation is distributed among the various categories of communities as given below:-

    Scheduled Castes / Scheduled Tribes 18%
    Most Backward Classes / Denotified Communities 20%
    Backward Classes 30%
    Open Competition 32%

    Based on the directions of High Court in W.A.No.1692 of 1987, the State Government issued orders in June 1990 providing one percent separate reservation for Scheduled Tribes taken from 32 percent reservation then available for open competition. The quantum of reservation provided to various categories are:-

    Scheduled Castes 18%
    Scheduled Tribes 1%
    Most Backward Classes/Denotified Communities 20%
    Backward Classes 30%
    Open Competition 31%

    Thus, the 69% reservation is in vogue in the state since 1990.

  45. Ravi, Sathiya, Tell me whether you can understand this

    Which Community will get MORE Seats if Creamy layers are excluded from BC – BC

    Which Community will get LESS Seats if Creamy layers are excluded from BC – FC

  46. Question

    The question is why hasn’t this happened in TN in so many years (other than the Vanniar agitation)? Why is it that other OBCs are tolerating the Mudaliar/Nadar/Thevar/Kaunder stranglehold on OBC benefits?

    Answer

    Because NO SINGLE GROUP is marginalised in Tamil Nadu…..

    It does not mean that EVERY ONE is affluent, but if you take 100 IAS officers, you can see representation from ALL COMMUNITIES….

    The same with doctors, Police, Lawyers etc….

    Thus there is no “unrest”…

    The only time there was unrest was in the late 80s.. and that too was beautifully solved by splitting the BC into BC and MBC……

    That is how the dravidian leaders managed it….

    For example, if MGR or Kalaignar had promised SC Status for Vanniars, that would have meant a clash between Vanniars and Parayars… But they just split the BC Quota into two – 3 parts for BC (150 Castes) and 2 parts for MBC (about 100 Castes)…

    //Why is it that other OBCs are tolerating the Mudaliar/Nadar/Thevar/Kaunder stranglehold on OBC benefits? //

    There is NO Strangle hold at all… The strangle hold is an impression created by few media with vested interests…….

    Every community has guys who are below poverty line and every community has millionaires

    Every community has IAS Officers, Doctors, Engineers, Lawyers, and of course politicians

    Of course, there are few selected communities like Anglo Indians, Saurashtrans etc who may not be represented politically, but they have 100 % literacy rates and manage to get into good jobs…

    Nadars, for example include the printers and mill owners of Sivakasi and also the guy who climbs palmyra tree for Rs 40 per day…. The same with fishermen community.,… the same with Thevars…

    Thus NO community is marginalised in tamil nadu… and every one knows this

    This social equality has been brought on by the reservation, primary education and social revolution over the past 80 years

  47. BCs and MBCs of Tamilnadu are together equivalent to the “Other Backward Castes”, as they are referred to in the rest of the country.

    The most obvious observation from the data above is that the percentage of reservations is only equal to or lower than the percentage of the group in the overall population.

    So the reservation system is only trying to bring about proportional representation in educational institutions. It does not result in a reverse-discrimination (which would mean BCs get more than their proportional share in order to right historical wrongs), as many people claim. FCs, who form the “others”, still get the bulk of the 31% open-quota seats even though their population percentage is only 13%.

    If BCs get a little more seats, it is because of their improved performance.

    If FCs can score the first 500 ranks in TN, then BC will get only 30 % of seats (compared to their population of 46%) and FC can get 31 % compared to their population of 13 %

  48. The problem is that though many FC candidates score lower than even the reserved-category cut-off marks, they still blame reservations!.

  49. Ravi,

    Your Question http://payanangal.blogspot.com/2008/05/blog-post.html?showComment=1210002540000#c3806143186015520731

    Answer by a FC
    http://www.aidindia.org/main/content/view/315/1/

    Overall, the experience with reservation has been very positive, and that is why there is wide-spread support for it in the state. The government health-care system in Tamilnadu is better than most other states, and one reason has been the quality doctors that the system produces, a factor attributed to reservations. Many of them also opt to serve in rural areas. Not surprisingly, the TN chapter of the Indian Medical Association supports quotas for the OBCs.

  50. Bruno, i seem to get all except this

    //Which Community will get MORE Seats if Creamy layers are excluded from BC – BC

    Which Community will get LESS Seats if Creamy layers are excluded from BC – FC//

    How is that BC benefit irrespective of whether creamy layer is there or not? and if so, do you mean to say there is no use removing creamy layer to reduce benefits for BC and transfer them to other communities?

  51. //How is that BC benefit irrespective of whether creamy layer is there or not? //

    Good Question Ravi,

    Let me explain.

    Assume a BC Candidate, Mr.X with General Rank 450 in Tamil Nadu Medical Admissions Merit List. His father is an IAS Officer working as Secretary to Government. Right Now he has got a BC Certificate.

    See here
    http://www.targetpg.net/2008/06/tamil-nadu-mbbsbds-course-2008-2009.html

    When our guy walks in the counselling Room on 5th, in all probability, there will be Seats for General Category in Dharmapuri Medical College (the newly opened, while there are seats in BC Quota in MMC, Stanley and Kilpauk)

    Which will he take. ???

    He will of course take the seat in BC Quota

    Now if the Creamy layer is excluded, our Dr.X can compete only in OC.

    So he will take the seat in Dharmapuri under OC

    There by the BC Seat in MMC can be taken by a Candidate from Backward Caste (who does not come under Creamy Layer) and hence can apply under BC Quota also

    So

    The actual Number of seats taken by Candidates from Backward Classes will increase when Creamy Layer Concept is introduced.

    In reality –> this creamy layer exclusion is a big setback for Forward Castes

    But why did they argue for that so long in court –> Because they wanted all those who have completed SCHOOL Education to be classified as Creamy Layer –> there by effectively nullifying the OBC Quotas in Medical, Engineering and other colleges

    Once the court made clear that School Education (of the concerned person) can never be the criteria, all the fanfare associated with Creamy layer suddenly stopped 🙂 🙂

    ஹா ஹா ஹா

  52. Clarification

    Whether there is a Creamy Layer Exclusion or not

    The Number of Seats taken by Candidates with BC Certificate will be the same

    But, if Creamy Layer is excluded
    The Number of Seats taken by Candidates with BC Certificate will be the same (Say X)
    The number of seats taken by Candidates from Backward Classes will increase (X + Number of candidates who though from Backward Community has to compete in OC only)

  53. அதாவது வட்டாச்சியர் அலுவலக தட்டச்சரின் மகன் தட்டச்சர் வேலைக்கு பொது பிரிவில் தான் போட்டியிட வேண்டும். ஆனால் அதே பையன் மருத்துவ நுழைவு தேர்வு அல்லது ஐ.ஏ.ஏஸ் என்றால் இடப்பங்கீடு வழங்கலாம்

    இது தான் நான் பல வருடங்களாக கூறி வருவது

  54. http://in.tamil.yahoo.com/News/National/0809/16/1080916001_1.htm

    இது இப்படி நடக்கும் என்று தான் எங்களுக்கு தெரியுமே

    அதனால் தானே

    In reality –> this creamy layer exclusion is a big setback for Forward Castes என்று இருந்தாலும் அவர்கள் கிருமி லேயர் வேண்டும் என்று கேட்டது

    அது சரி

    நிரப்பப்படாத இடங்களில் முற்பட்ட வகுப்பு மாணவர்கள் அனைவரும் சேர்த்துக்கொள்ளப்படுவார்களா அல்லது முற்பட்ட வகுப்பினரில் கிருமி லேயர் அல்லாதவர்கள் மட்டும் தானா

    இந்த கேள்விக்கு வரும் விடை சுவாரசியமானதாக இருக்கும் 🙂 🙂

  55. I came across your website when I wanted a Tamil Input Method Editor.

    I want to add the following comments:

    (1) IITs prepare a common merit list for OCs. The cut off mark is the mark scored by the last candidate so admitted. IITs provide a relaxation of 10% to OBCs from this cut off and 40% for SC/ST candidates. The moot point is how much is the relaxation to be provided for OBCs/SC-STs.
    (2) The similar figures for TNPCEE medical/entrance exam may pl. be posted for one to have a correct view.
    (3) Creamy layer is a concept that has been demanded not to perpetuate the scheme of reservation. It should be legislated that persons who had benefit of reservation of two generations will not be eligible for reservation from the next generation onwards.
    (4) Reservation should never mean relaxing standards.

    Expecting further reply on this points,

    R. Ganesan.

  56. //IITs provide a relaxation of 10% //

    Then How come OBC and Open Cut off are same in IITJEE 2008

    // The similar figures for TNPCEE medical/entrance exam may pl. be posted for one to have a correct view.//

    Please see http://www.ularal.com/express/
    In TNPCEE, fixed number of seats are reserved.

    //Reservation should never mean relaxing standards.//
    Please see TNPCEE marks and you will know the fact

    Can you explain why the same cut off was adopted for OBC and OC and then it was informed that there were no OBC Students and those seats were also filled by OC

  57. Dear Sir,

    There is absolutely no substantiantiation that there is the same cut off for OCs/MBCs. First tell me, where from you got this information. It is a pity that we the educated people are getting emotional over reservation issue instead of analysing it logically with the correct data.

    In IIT-JEE 2008 examination, subject wise cut-off for Physics, Chemistry and Mathematics worked out to be 5, 0 and 3 respectively. The aggregate cut off worked out to 172. After extending the relaxation as stated above, the aggregate cut off for OBC/ PH was 155 and for SC/ST candidates it was 104.

    I went through the website you suggested and found that the difference in cut off marks for different communities is 5% maximum. If that were really the case, then there is every reason for reservation system to be gradually withdrawn and other forms of affirmative action to be tried.

    Hoping to get your comments,

    Yours sincerely,
    R. Ganesan.

  58. //There is absolutely no substantiantiation that there is the same cut off for OCs/MBCs. //

    You are wrong

    The IIT Cut Off for OC as well as OBC are the same

    I never told that OC and MBC Cut off are the same

  59. // First tell me, where from you got this information.//
    I did not get that information. It was YOU who told the wrong information that MBC and OC Cut off are same

    // It is a pity that we the educated people are getting emotional over reservation issue instead of analysing it logically with the correct data.//

    Exactly. Educated people like you are getting emotional over reservation without analysing the data 🙂

  60. //In IIT-JEE 2008 examination, subject wise cut-off for Physics, Chemistry and Mathematics worked out to be 5, 0 and 3 respectively. The aggregate cut off worked out to 172. After extending the relaxation as stated above, the aggregate cut off for OBC/ PH was 155 and for SC/ST candidates it was 104.//

    No dear.

    Please see http://jee.iitr.ernet.in/cutoff.htm

    The subject-wise cut-off marks are, respectively, 5, 0 and 3. Yes, you read it right: in physics, this cut-off is indeed zero.
    The IITs have used a reduced cut-off for reserved categories. This concession is 10 percent for OBC candidates, and 40 percent for SC and ST candidates. Thus, for SC and ST candidates, the subject-wise cut-offs were at 3, 0, 1.8 marks in math, physics and chemistry, respectively.

    This means that you have to get this mark to get a seat, but just because you have got this mark, the seat is not guaranteed !!

    To see who gets the seat, they use something called as Aggregate Cut Off (Our suspicion is that the use of two cut offs is a deliberate attempt to cheat people and deny the benefits of reservation and then to give seats illegally to people from forward community)

    4. Aggregate cutoff for the Common Merit List is 172. Aggregate cutoff was determined to declare the required no. of candidates (1.15 times the number of seats available) qualified:

    So any OC Candidate with mark more than 172 will get the seat. OK !!

    5. Relaxations in aggregate cutoff to other categories – Maximum relaxation as given hereunder or till the required number of candidates (1.15 times the number of seats available in the category, except for OBC) qualify, whichever is higher.

    OBC & PD – 10% lower than the aggregate of the last qualified candidate in the common merit list.
    SC & ST – 40% lower than the aggregate total of the last qualified candidate.

    But, if you see the next para
    6. Actual Aggregate cutoff – Following aggregate cutoffs have been obtained as per 5 above for preparing reserved category merit lists.

    Category

    Aggregate cutoff

    No. of Candidates Qualified

    OBC

    172.0

    1134

    PD

    154.8

    20

    SC

    103.2

    690

    ST

    103.2

    159

  61. So actual aggregate cut off for OC and OBC are the same 172 as given in the IIT Web site itself

    How did it happen.

    “Clerical Error”

    For calculating the number of seats in OBC, they have taken the “OLD” number of seats – without adding the 9 %

    For calculating the OC Cut Off they have taken the new number of seats – after adding 9 %

    Thus, they have given seats to OBC Candidates with marks more than 172

    but

    have given cheated the nation and court that the rest of OBC Seats are vacant, and illegally and immorally given the seats to candidates from OC (most will be from Forward Community)

    Is that clear Mr.Ganesan

  62. //I went through the website you suggested and found that the difference in cut off marks for different communities is 5% maximum.//

    Yes. That is in TAMIL NADU where

    1. Reservation are there for more than 75 years
    2. Reservations are done in a proper way unlike IITs who cheat the nation with two cut offs

    // If that were really the case, then there is every reason for reservation system to be gradually withdrawn and other forms of affirmative action to be tried.//

    And that is every reason that

    Creamy Layer concept should not be used
    Reservations should be implemented in a proper way
    The guys who cheat the reservation scheme (with two cut offs) to be arrested and punished

    Hoping to get your comments,
    Yours sincerely,
    Bruno

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