Bruno brought to my notice that there is something fishy about the IIT seats being left unfilled.
This seems like a big scandal and completely insane !!
The people at the IIT admission committee don’t seem to know how to implement reservation or they don’t want to !
This is how reservation works:
The eligibility marks in Maths, Physics, Chemistry are 5, 0 and 3. Those who got more than eligibility marks can all apply to get admitted.
Say, we have totally 100 seats. and 20 for Open competition, 40 for OBC, 40 For SC-ST (just some random percents)
Top 20 rankers (including OBC, SC-ST not just FC) will get admitted into the 20 seats for Open competetion. The aggregate score of the 20th person will be the cut-off for Open competition. You should note that the cut-off is an incidental score set by the 20th person.
Then the next 40 seats are filled by the next 40 Top ranking OBC. even if the 40th person got just 5, 0, 3 the minimum eligible mark, he deserves to get the seat filled. He doesn’t need to have a top score.
…and the procedure continues for SC-ST.
No one fixes the cut-off first. It gets automatically fixed when the seats are filled. It can only be known after all seats are filled and serves as an indication for next year candidates how much they may need to score to get admitted in their quota.
fixing the cut-off mark first and driving away prospective students from each quota and proposing to merge these seats to common pool and get some more FC getting added is plain cheating.
For anyone who follows TNPCEE procedure, we expect that the cut-off marks for Open competetion, OBC, SC-ST should be really distinct and significantly lesser than Open competetion.
This is how reservation should work.
{ 72 comments… read them below or add one }
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If you cannot understand the above line (which look very very odd), please tell me and I will explain
Question
The question is why hasn’t this happened in TN in so many years (other than the Vanniar agitation)? Why is it that other OBCs are tolerating the Mudaliar/Nadar/Thevar/Kaunder stranglehold on OBC benefits?
Answer
Because NO SINGLE GROUP is marginalised in Tamil Nadu…..
It does not mean that EVERY ONE is affluent, but if you take 100 IAS officers, you can see representation from ALL COMMUNITIES….
The same with doctors, Police, Lawyers etc….
Thus there is no “unrest”…
The only time there was unrest was in the late 80s.. and that too was beautifully solved by splitting the BC into BC and MBC……
That is how the dravidian leaders managed it….
For example, if MGR or Kalaignar had promised SC Status for Vanniars, that would have meant a clash between Vanniars and Parayars… But they just split the BC Quota into two – 3 parts for BC (150 Castes) and 2 parts for MBC (about 100 Castes)…
//Why is it that other OBCs are tolerating the Mudaliar/Nadar/Thevar/Kaunder stranglehold on OBC benefits? //
There is NO Strangle hold at all… The strangle hold is an impression created by few media with vested interests…….
Every community has guys who are below poverty line and every community has millionaires
Every community has IAS Officers, Doctors, Engineers, Lawyers, and of course politicians
Of course, there are few selected communities like Anglo Indians, Saurashtrans etc who may not be represented politically, but they have 100 % literacy rates and manage to get into good jobs…
Nadars, for example include the printers and mill owners of Sivakasi and also the guy who climbs palmyra tree for Rs 40 per day…. The same with fishermen community.,… the same with Thevars…
Thus NO community is marginalised in tamil nadu… and every one knows this
This social equality has been brought on by the reservation, primary education and social revolution over the past 80 years
Please see this also
http://bruno.penandscale.com/2006/05/69-reservation-in-tamil-nadu.html
Also this
http://bruno.penandscale.com/2006/06/idiotic-questions-against-reservations.html
BCs and MBCs of Tamilnadu are together equivalent to the “Other Backward Castes”, as they are referred to in the rest of the country.
The most obvious observation from the data above is that the percentage of reservations is only equal to or lower than the percentage of the group in the overall population.
So the reservation system is only trying to bring about proportional representation in educational institutions. It does not result in a reverse-discrimination (which would mean BCs get more than their proportional share in order to right historical wrongs), as many people claim. FCs, who form the “others”, still get the bulk of the 31% open-quota seats even though their population percentage is only 13%.
If BCs get a little more seats, it is because of their improved performance.
If FCs can score the first 500 ranks in TN, then BC will get only 30 % of seats (compared to their population of 46%) and FC can get 31 % compared to their population of 13 %
The problem is that though many FC candidates score lower than even the reserved-category cut-off marks, they still blame reservations!.
Ravi,
Your Question http://payanangal.blogspot.com/2008/05/blog-post.html?showComment=1210002540000#c3806143186015520731
Answer by a FC
http://www.aidindia.org/main/content/view/315/1/
Overall, the experience with reservation has been very positive, and that is why there is wide-spread support for it in the state. The government health-care system in Tamilnadu is better than most other states, and one reason has been the quality doctors that the system produces, a factor attributed to reservations. Many of them also opt to serve in rural areas. Not surprisingly, the TN chapter of the Indian Medical Association supports quotas for the OBCs.
The initial debate is now settled
Any doubts and I am ready to answer
Bruno, i seem to get all except this
//Which Community will get MORE Seats if Creamy layers are excluded from BC – BC
Which Community will get LESS Seats if Creamy layers are excluded from BC – FC//
How is that BC benefit irrespective of whether creamy layer is there or not? and if so, do you mean to say there is no use removing creamy layer to reduce benefits for BC and transfer them to other communities?
//How is that BC benefit irrespective of whether creamy layer is there or not? //
Good Question Ravi,
Let me explain.
Assume a BC Candidate, Mr.X with General Rank 450 in Tamil Nadu Medical Admissions Merit List. His father is an IAS Officer working as Secretary to Government. Right Now he has got a BC Certificate.
See here
http://www.targetpg.net/2008/06/tamil-nadu-mbbsbds-course-2008-2009.html
When our guy walks in the counselling Room on 5th, in all probability, there will be Seats for General Category in Dharmapuri Medical College (the newly opened, while there are seats in BC Quota in MMC, Stanley and Kilpauk)
Which will he take. ???
He will of course take the seat in BC Quota
–
Now if the Creamy layer is excluded, our Dr.X can compete only in OC.
So he will take the seat in Dharmapuri under OC
There by the BC Seat in MMC can be taken by a Candidate from Backward Caste (who does not come under Creamy Layer) and hence can apply under BC Quota also
So
The actual Number of seats taken by Candidates from Backward Classes will increase when Creamy Layer Concept is introduced.
In reality –> this creamy layer exclusion is a big setback for Forward Castes
But why did they argue for that so long in court –> Because they wanted all those who have completed SCHOOL Education to be classified as Creamy Layer –> there by effectively nullifying the OBC Quotas in Medical, Engineering and other colleges
–
Once the court made clear that School Education (of the concerned person) can never be the criteria, all the fanfare associated with Creamy layer suddenly stopped
ஹா ஹா ஹா
Clarification
Whether there is a Creamy Layer Exclusion or not
The Number of Seats taken by Candidates with BC Certificate will be the same
But, if Creamy Layer is excluded
The Number of Seats taken by Candidates with BC Certificate will be the same (Say X)
The number of seats taken by Candidates from Backward Classes will increase (X + Number of candidates who though from Backward Community has to compete in OC only)
Ravi,
In comments 60 and 61, read BC as “BC+MBC”
அதாவது வட்டாச்சியர் அலுவலக தட்டச்சரின் மகன் தட்டச்சர் வேலைக்கு பொது பிரிவில் தான் போட்டியிட வேண்டும். ஆனால் அதே பையன் மருத்துவ நுழைவு தேர்வு அல்லது ஐ.ஏ.ஏஸ் என்றால் இடப்பங்கீடு வழங்கலாம்
இது தான் நான் பல வருடங்களாக கூறி வருவது
http://in.tamil.yahoo.com/News/National/0809/16/1080916001_1.htm
இது இப்படி நடக்கும் என்று தான் எங்களுக்கு தெரியுமே
அதனால் தானே
In reality –> this creamy layer exclusion is a big setback for Forward Castes என்று இருந்தாலும் அவர்கள் கிருமி லேயர் வேண்டும் என்று கேட்டது
அது சரி
நிரப்பப்படாத இடங்களில் முற்பட்ட வகுப்பு மாணவர்கள் அனைவரும் சேர்த்துக்கொள்ளப்படுவார்களா அல்லது முற்பட்ட வகுப்பினரில் கிருமி லேயர் அல்லாதவர்கள் மட்டும் தானா
இந்த கேள்விக்கு வரும் விடை சுவாரசியமானதாக இருக்கும்
I came across your website when I wanted a Tamil Input Method Editor.
I want to add the following comments:
(1) IITs prepare a common merit list for OCs. The cut off mark is the mark scored by the last candidate so admitted. IITs provide a relaxation of 10% to OBCs from this cut off and 40% for SC/ST candidates. The moot point is how much is the relaxation to be provided for OBCs/SC-STs.
(2) The similar figures for TNPCEE medical/entrance exam may pl. be posted for one to have a correct view.
(3) Creamy layer is a concept that has been demanded not to perpetuate the scheme of reservation. It should be legislated that persons who had benefit of reservation of two generations will not be eligible for reservation from the next generation onwards.
(4) Reservation should never mean relaxing standards.
Expecting further reply on this points,
R. Ganesan.
//IITs provide a relaxation of 10% //
Then How come OBC and Open Cut off are same in IITJEE 2008
// The similar figures for TNPCEE medical/entrance exam may pl. be posted for one to have a correct view.//
Please see http://www.ularal.com/express/
In TNPCEE, fixed number of seats are reserved.
//Reservation should never mean relaxing standards.//
Please see TNPCEE marks and you will know the fact
–
Can you explain why the same cut off was adopted for OBC and OC and then it was informed that there were no OBC Students and those seats were also filled by OC
Dear Sir,
There is absolutely no substantiantiation that there is the same cut off for OCs/MBCs. First tell me, where from you got this information. It is a pity that we the educated people are getting emotional over reservation issue instead of analysing it logically with the correct data.
In IIT-JEE 2008 examination, subject wise cut-off for Physics, Chemistry and Mathematics worked out to be 5, 0 and 3 respectively. The aggregate cut off worked out to 172. After extending the relaxation as stated above, the aggregate cut off for OBC/ PH was 155 and for SC/ST candidates it was 104.
I went through the website you suggested and found that the difference in cut off marks for different communities is 5% maximum. If that were really the case, then there is every reason for reservation system to be gradually withdrawn and other forms of affirmative action to be tried.
Hoping to get your comments,
Yours sincerely,
R. Ganesan.
//There is absolutely no substantiantiation that there is the same cut off for OCs/MBCs. //
You are wrong
The IIT Cut Off for OC as well as OBC are the same
I never told that OC and MBC Cut off are the same
// First tell me, where from you got this information.//
I did not get that information. It was YOU who told the wrong information that MBC and OC Cut off are same
// It is a pity that we the educated people are getting emotional over reservation issue instead of analysing it logically with the correct data.//
Exactly. Educated people like you are getting emotional over reservation without analysing the data
//In IIT-JEE 2008 examination, subject wise cut-off for Physics, Chemistry and Mathematics worked out to be 5, 0 and 3 respectively. The aggregate cut off worked out to 172. After extending the relaxation as stated above, the aggregate cut off for OBC/ PH was 155 and for SC/ST candidates it was 104.//
No dear.
Please see http://jee.iitr.ernet.in/cutoff.htm
The subject-wise cut-off marks are, respectively, 5, 0 and 3. Yes, you read it right: in physics, this cut-off is indeed zero.
The IITs have used a reduced cut-off for reserved categories. This concession is 10 percent for OBC candidates, and 40 percent for SC and ST candidates. Thus, for SC and ST candidates, the subject-wise cut-offs were at 3, 0, 1.8 marks in math, physics and chemistry, respectively.
This means that you have to get this mark to get a seat, but just because you have got this mark, the seat is not guaranteed !!
To see who gets the seat, they use something called as Aggregate Cut Off (Our suspicion is that the use of two cut offs is a deliberate attempt to cheat people and deny the benefits of reservation and then to give seats illegally to people from forward community)
4. Aggregate cutoff for the Common Merit List is 172. Aggregate cutoff was determined to declare the required no. of candidates (1.15 times the number of seats available) qualified:
So any OC Candidate with mark more than 172 will get the seat. OK !!
5. Relaxations in aggregate cutoff to other categories – Maximum relaxation as given hereunder or till the required number of candidates (1.15 times the number of seats available in the category, except for OBC) qualify, whichever is higher.
OBC & PD – 10% lower than the aggregate of the last qualified candidate in the common merit list.
SC & ST – 40% lower than the aggregate total of the last qualified candidate.
But, if you see the next para
6. Actual Aggregate cutoff – Following aggregate cutoffs have been obtained as per 5 above for preparing reserved category merit lists.
Category
Aggregate cutoff
No. of Candidates Qualified
OBC
172.0
1134
PD
154.8
20
SC
103.2
690
ST
103.2
159
So actual aggregate cut off for OC and OBC are the same 172 as given in the IIT Web site itself
–
How did it happen.
“Clerical Error”
For calculating the number of seats in OBC, they have taken the “OLD” number of seats – without adding the 9 %
For calculating the OC Cut Off they have taken the new number of seats – after adding 9 %
-
Thus, they have given seats to OBC Candidates with marks more than 172
but
have given cheated the nation and court that the rest of OBC Seats are vacant, and illegally and immorally given the seats to candidates from OC (most will be from Forward Community)
–
Is that clear Mr.Ganesan
//I went through the website you suggested and found that the difference in cut off marks for different communities is 5% maximum.//
Yes. That is in TAMIL NADU where
1. Reservation are there for more than 75 years
2. Reservations are done in a proper way unlike IITs who cheat the nation with two cut offs
// If that were really the case, then there is every reason for reservation system to be gradually withdrawn and other forms of affirmative action to be tried.//
And that is every reason that
Creamy Layer concept should not be used
Reservations should be implemented in a proper way
The guys who cheat the reservation scheme (with two cut offs) to be arrested and punished
Hoping to get your comments,
Yours sincerely,
Bruno
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